oooh...u bore me...ur like those people who stand around and toyi toyi cos they upset. The EIA will pass, the Interchange will start construction in June, the people that have tendered for the consultantcy position will be assigned by March and the project will get off the ground in terms of the actual facilities in 2007. anyway, neither of those articles were by David Canning (yes u will say he has sway....blah blah blah), and secondly, they werent painting a rosy picture, they were communicating FACTS! You cant lie about tenders and stuff...cos they have been open to the general public to see. and they probably dont communicate with you because you arent anyone of any substance worthy of their time. You could be a school kid or anything. Ur like a little puppy....never wanting to let go of the bone even when there is nothing left to chew on

King Shaka -- Dube
Well you must have some sort of inside info as to what the EIA is or is not going to do. ( Perhaps even more so than they themselves) You do realise that the EIA approval goes al the way to the National minister -- NOT the local provincial guys.! As far as the interchange is concerned -- that CANNOT legally go ahead either. It was one of the questions that I specifically brought up at one of the EIA meetings. In any case the tender you speak of is only for a proof of concept -- it is a preliminary step. I do not understand how you think something like this can just be railroaded through without any proper process -- or by following the proper legal guidelines. I am sorry you do not think that I count for much -- I am a voting SA citizen -- that should be enough. You seem to have a very high handed attitude. I suppose that explains a lot. As for puppies -- it is normally old dogs that hold onto old bones -- becaue they know no better. They forget where they bury them

Mate, its rather simple. Yes you're a South African citizen, so am i, but more often than not its perminently pesimistic people such as yourself that hold onto their rigid ways that hold out investment into communities. I'm not saying fuck the law, what i am saying, is that they will find a way to make this project work, for it is incredibly important to the future growth of the economy.

King Shaka -- Dube
Hi again my old sparring partner , What is really important is to get the lights in the Western Cape switched on again -- and some of those in Gauteng as well. It would also help to get the normal old standard trains working again. What a mess Spoornet is -- or should that be Metro Rail -- or even Transnet. Sorry -- but my pessimisim had nothing to do with those problems. or the lack of REAL progress in so many more mundane areas likely to be associated with the World Cup. Which it would be tedious to spell out. People are thinking of building bullet trains when nearly everyone just really needs the old stuff to WORK. It is NOT just a question of money. The question really is HOW to spend it wisely. If that means hanging onto ridgid ways -- then I guess you better count me in.

Prickley Questions?
Chris sorry but I noticed you asked me to reply to some "prickley" questions. What are they? If it is my knowledge or probity to do so I will gladley respond. You seem to find building the new airport a bad idea, but then it's not a bad idea so long as it is built on some other site. You sond like someone who has a toy and rather than let somebody else play with it would rather destroy it!! The db footprint for the airport (any airport) are above the international recommended levels and it may interest you that at the present Durban International Airport the levels are above those which are permissable under SA law as there are residential areas close to the airport which record DB readings at over db82! When is Durban international going to be closed down for breach of db noise limits? You see Chris, there will be an environmental impact assesment on the proposed site and it will highlight some issues, but as you say the law is the law and have you considered that if you actually read what can be done to reduce the impact it is fairly interesting, here is one 1. Just after V2 reduce power to 75% And the kicker here is that if a current airport is breaching these db levels and is to close, the new airport can continue with the current levels from the other airport as long as the number of individuals is not increased. The important wording here is number of individuals (this was pointed out to me in January as presently the population density in the current airport location is far greater than that at the proposed site.) The other reason which the EIA will expose as prudent to re-site the airport is apparently there is a huge oil refinary right next to the current airport which supplies not only Durban but a large proportion of the country and if a disaster where to occure, the impact would be economicaly devistating. As for bird flu, yes a concern but so is AIDS and Cancer and Polio and....... Bird flu!! Is this the best you can come up with!!

King Shaka -- Dube
Greetings again..... QUESTIONS; What is the curfew for Heathrow.? WHAT is going to be the curfew for KSIA.? IS KSIA going to be a Heathrow or a Stanstead or a Gatwick or a Manchester.? The one question was about a reference for the EIA approval for the La Mercy fuel pipeline.? The other was about the noise abatement procedures for Windsor Castle.? Another was the pie in the sky idea about supplanting JIA with KSIA. ? (and why ACSA is spending so much money on upgrades) It is not about destoying toys -- it IS about making BETTER ones What they need to do about DIA is promulgate the legislation about Cat 2 type aircraft. Although this is likely not to happen -- it will put all the low cost carriers out of business. I wonder what the guys living in the DSIB have to say -- I will have to ask them. I know what the noise level is I was there , I experienced it. Noise is one thing , what about toxic air pollution and oil spills.? WHY have they not closed down SAPREF and ENREF -- or MONDI for that matter.? With all due respect , the residents near the proposed site have properties worth substantially more -- and have a sight more clout as well. We all know that there is no such thing as justice for the poor. As far as procedures for reducing noise levels -- sure there are all sorts of things that one can do. Will airlines be prepared to follow "non-standard" procedures that are perhaps not recommended in the manuals.? As far as the implementation of the legislation is concerned -- I will check that at my next meeting with the EIA team. My reading of the law is different to yours. Are you reading WHO and CHICAGO -- ICAO.? IF residents at the current location are fighting against the noise load -- what makes you think that residents at the proposed site will welcome this new unlawful intrusion into their lives. Your red herring of the fuel refineries is just that. From way way back the refineries and the old Louis Botha airport have co-existed - without ANY incidents -- even during the "struggle " years when sabotage was on everyones lips. Trying to to follow up a bad situation with another bad situation gets us nowhere. Bending the law is not the same as implementing the law. As for bird flu -- I feel terribly sorry for the poor birds. People also thought that the Spanish influenza was just for the pigs -- Animal Farm versus Jonathan Livingstone Seagull. Some "humans" should not have anything to do with flight. Just to make your day have a look at these guys... http://www.stopstanstedexpansion.com/ Now I WONDER what you and your company are telling THESE people.? "It would be environmental vandalism on an unprecedented scale." http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/essex/3019925.stm YOU DO believe the BBC.?

Reply to "prickley" questions
Chris here is my reply to your "prickly" questions if I have failed to answer any, please feel free to ask again and I shall respond: 1. Heathrow curfew is 23:30 to 05:00 2. KSIA being another LHR, MAN etc... I am not sure, but we would use it for Australasian flights and our primary port of entry to SA. The other airlines, which I have spoken to, would prefer to use KSAI than Johannesburg as their primary entry point also. 3. I am not a party to the discussion regarding the fuel pipeline, but I have spoken to some of those involved and subject to compliance this should not be a problem. 4. The noise abatement procedure does not just apply to Windsor Castle, even though our Queen is fairly wealthy (maybe a little wealthier than those living near the KSIA site) and as you succinctly put it has “more clout than the poor”, our law makes no allowance for wealth. But, that aside, when flying over residential areas, 75% of power after V2. 5. Why ACSA is spending money on upgrades, ask them. Maybe they do not want air traffic to be diverted to KSIA and are trying to entice airlines to remain in Johannesburg once we have KSIA as an alternative. 6. Why have we not closed down SAPREF, ENREF and MONDI? It is not our job; we are in the airline business. 7. As stated previously the law takes no account of wealth, you being such and exponent of it should know this. “The law is the law”. 8. The law I am reading is not an international one, as you may well know about the “law” we have agreed guidelines internationally but there is no law in place. 9. The EIA will state the oil refinery being a reason to move. 10. Stanstead expansion: We do not use Stanstead but I think those complaining do not realise the implications for them. Most think this will involve more aircraft movements, but it would have the reverse. Strange you may think but no, presently we have a lot of light aircraft and microlight movements near Stanstead, if they expand the TMA of stanstead these PPL(A) and PPL(M) pilots will be excluded as it will become class “A” airspace and only those pilots with a full instrument rating will be able to fly in the newly expanded TMA and airspace. 11. Yes the BBC is trustworthy

Post script
Sorry point 8 should read that each country has their own law governing noise abatemant and thus the SA position as I outlined earlier in previouse answers. Chris either you are anti aviation or just anti aviation if you do not get people to agree with your point of view, and I am not sure which. Even if we where to decide on this site you propose, would we still not have to go thru the same envionmental impact survey and noise footprint analysis? I have just been speaking to one of our pilots who comes from the area something like Amanztoti and he said this site you proposed earlier is used by microlight pilots at present but would be unsuitable for large commercial aircraft due to adverse rotor as the area is fairly undulating? Is this correct? He tells me that when he flew commercially in SA there where NO procedures regarding noise abatement prosedures at the current airport. SO Chris what are you playing at? This is not an issue currently why an issue now? Apparently there is no curfew in Durban currently and he knows of plenty of freighter flights comming in at all hours and a few years ago an egypt air used to take off (now this is when noise is an issue) at 02H00 once a week!!! Chris, if the decision is made for the airport to be at your site would you then not have an issue with noise abatement or Enviro impact assesments? Chris, in the UK we always have pressure groups complaining about noise etc... But we are building terminal 5 albeit after a long process of inquiries, but in the end it was built as it makes commercial sense.

and isnt that the whole reason for KSIA? COMERCIAL SENSE! ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT! It is about what will bring the most advantages to Durban and South Africa, with the least number of disadvantages. What will enable the city and country to grow their time sensitive exports. And also, allow international point to point arrivals in durban for the benefit of the tourist and business communities. And with greater access, comes greater appeal, and hence greater tourist numbers, and therefore greater employment. and at the end of the day, greater employment is the most important thing for south africa

King Shaka -- Dube
Hi there again , Thanks for the long interesting reply. 1.) Curfew as I thought -- DIA does not have a curfew that I am aware of -- * for freight * although SAA has stopped the "midnight" passenger flight. KSIA will be open all hours for freight as well.! 2.) Can you specify the other airlines. I have read reports stating the exact opposite. BARSA obviously do not want to speak about this as they are either incredibly incompetent or are blocking me. 3.) Fuel pipeline being done ( if it is being done ) by some other EIA company. DUBE is still talking about Road Tankers. I will contact SAPREF and find out what they have to say. 4.) FYI I have been to Heathrow AND Windsor Castle -- spent the day there. At that time i saw a lot of aircraft -- VERY high -- hardly heard them at all. I thought that the Queen lived at Buckingham Palace -- and then in Scotland -- I am sure she would not be too happy living in a " museum " open to the public.? Please spare me the crazy idea about the Queen and the poor -- only the most naiive buy that story. 5.) ACSA works on puiblic money -- ACSA is fighting DUBE KSIA ALSO put together with public money -- does this make ANY sort of sense.? As Minister Alec irwin said , public risk -- private profit -- BEE profit. 6.) Never said that you should close down SAPREF etc -- just trying to point out the hypocrisy. 7 & 8 ) Yes theoretically the law is the law. Why is Jacob Zuma battling to get it to work for him.? perhaps because justice costs a LOT of money -- and that applies to the guilty as much as to the innocent. 9.) SA is an ICAO member / signatory as such we should be abiding by Internationally agreed standards. The fact that SA has not yet implemented the necessary legislation does not mean that they will never. It is ready -- just waiting. Official standards have already been worked out , set and published. This should scare the pants off people like 1Time , Kulula and Airlink amongst others. 10.) Well I had a meeting today with the EIA and they said nothing about any refineries and moving -- perhaps you know better than I do.? ( or perhaps your informants are feeding you false information again ) Dube as the initiating company seem to be playing their cards too close to their chests -- even the EIA have problems getting information out of them.! In any case there are a number of better reasons to bring forward for moving. Again the " new " master plan is in the embyonic stages , everyone is falling over themselves in their haste -- just like the International passengers will be doing -- falling over building rubble. 11.) Shame on you dissing the poor microlights. How can they be compared to " heavy iron -- aluminium -- TIN " Hhmm Amanzimtoti pilots Are you sure that you were not speaking to Mike Sutcliffe.? Well you claim to have flown over the area in question ( must have been you in that R22?) Undulating........ NO it is a huge piece of FLAT plateau that sticks out into the valley of a thousand hills -- in the easterly direction -- come on surely you know how to use Google Earth -- or even how to get hold of far more detailed geo-spatial mapping. DO you want the contact details for the guys that did the aerial mapping of the place.? As for rotor ? All the times I have flown there never noticed it at all. It is NOT just micro-lights that fly there either. The airstrip as it currently exists is a TINY fragment of what the whole potential; is. I wonder if these so-called experts have ever actually stood on the ground there -- or flown over it -- more than once. A study was done some years ago when the choice was made between Cato or La Mercy. Strangely NO-ONE can now find these documents.? There is a problem -- certain encumbent and moribund industries left over from the Apartheid planning days need to find new and better homes. The controversial plant of a certain BRITISH company needs to be de-commissioned as well -- ever heard of a mysterious substance called "Red-Mercury" ? As far as an EIA for this area -- YES it would have to be done. The point is that the findiongs would be a LOT more favourable -- in many different areas. The envisaged development fits better and has a lot more positive potential for this area. What scope is there at La Mercy for expansion.? You have a robust property market that real estate developers want to grow and expand. You have a "Trade-Port" that wants industrial expansion -- AND more flight numbers PLUS a second runway. PLEASE explain how these conflicting interests and development imperatives can co-exist.? DIA noise abatement procedures -- the old "cowboy" days are over -- ICAO is making it's precense felt -- Noise has always been an issue -- it has just always been swept under the carpet -- had the blind eye turned. But things change , time moves on.... Tell us about ICAO's program for new Biometric Machine Readable Passports or MRTD -- compulsory---WORLDWIDE --- by ---- 2010. ? Strange how this 2010 date keeps on popping up.?

reply to Chris
Chris, I am not going to reply point by point as I think I have answered your questions. The Queen does live in Windsor Castle on most weekends and Buck house is also open to the public during the summer. I am not here to judge who is making money out of this project or any other, we just want to this project to be started as soon as possible and then hopefully try and get South Africa to sign an openskies agreement, this will be difficult I grant you as SAA is fairly vocal on not allowing this as it may well drop prices but the SA routes are oversubscribed and we need more capacity on them.

Dube --King Shaka
Hi Again , Firstly a reply to Dysan ( Mike ) Economic development..... You have such a wealth of information over at Skyscraper city.Fortunately so much of it contains little gems of information. So much info about Moreland and Metallon ( nothing yet about uBhubesi ) . I am not suprised to see these guys involved in the so-called point development. "Birds of a feather " and all that , including the regualr conflicts of interest. I am just suprised that with your access to information and interest that you are not saying anything about these linkages.? Also please have a look at current media publications -- I believe that there is a now a Noise contour map out in the press. In the press up this way there is an article by Rohan Persad all about how PMBG is so wonderfully situated for a dry port and how DBN does not have the right transport linkages etc. etc. Perhaps a consolation prize for the politicians up this way. Perhaps the message is getting through now that AFRICON is re-doing the "Master Plan" . As for "british" hey mate here is the noise FAQ for BA http://www.britishairways.com/travel/crnoise/public/en_gb Please could we have a look at your companies equivalent..... ( All my details are freely available here ) I am beginning to suspect that you do not really have anything to do with any exalted personages -- perhaps you are from BA / COMAIR ? or one of those other regional airlines with International affiliates.? I would be interested to know just exactly what your involvement in this project is , and why you are so keen to see it go ahead -- You have not yet answered my question about the other airlines that are interested in this project. I was chatting to Miller Matola the CEO of TKZN last night and he seems to present a very different picture of airlines considering route planning to KZN rather than JIA. WHO approves all these new routes and slots anyway.? I am interested in your submission about the oversubscribed routes , perhaps my SAR 5 Bill contact is not too far out in the wilderness then. ( and that is not the UK 50 Mill being laundered) EVERYTHING that you want CAN BE acheived at Cato. I do not understand why no-one is even talking about this option as it solves so many other problems? Perhaps 2010 has a special significance all of its own.? I am NOT talking about the Bafoona-Bafoona either.! As for the Queen -- " QUEEN " was the best thing that ever came out of the UK.

King Shaka -- Dube
An update.... Getting in through the back door.? I notice that Virgin Atlantic has no affiliation with any regional SA Airlines...? A direct point to point would obviate the need for this -- or would it -- it would still mean flights to Cape Town AND Johannesburg but now with Durban on the screen as well.! -- and all those lovely new slots and routes and pax and.. and ... < pop > Does SAA ( Transnet) still want to dispose of the Regional market.? as well as giving up parts of the International ( oversubscribed ) routes.? What would it mean for African "Open Skies" and Yamasoukro ? http://www.dot.gov/affairs/062801sp.htm Hhhmm what would this mean for open skies -- what would it mean for a total global penetration -- all the way from Sydney to New York...? I think Mr "british" that now is the time to come clean...! " We are Virgin, Resistance is futile , Assimilation is assured "

Some interesting news which could lead to open skies...at last!! DTI wants aviation overhaul The government has developed a mulit-departmental action plan to address the problems of capacity and the high cost of air travel resulting from current policies that are restrciting the country's tourism growth. The Department o Trade and Industry (DTI) is recommending that a Director of Tourism Aviation is appointed at the Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism (Deat) to help it take the lead in galvanising a tourist focus to airlift. A more effective airlift programme will have the single biggest impact on tourism after skills development according to the latest version of the DTI Tourism Sector Development Strategy...The document says that the Department of Transport (DoT), which has the repsonsibility for ensuring appropriate airlift is available, is currently reviewing international aviation policy...Government will consult with interested parties to reduce barriers limiting available capacity and DoT will work toward making strategic bilaterals more flexible. The intention is to promote competition amongst SA carriers on international routes and look for ways to promote robust participation from carriers from major source markets." David Marsh Source:TNW