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Gregpz- 02-28-2006
Re: King Shaka -- Dube - Real World
Airports with no infrastructure -- please explain growth of tourism numbers at Pilansberg.! Sol Kerzner would certainly like to disagree with your statement about NO infrastructure. Just comparison of passenger growth between the "growing" Pilansberg & Durban airport. ______________Pilansberg_____________Durban 2002__________24,983_______________2,572,113 2003__________20,104 -19.5%________2,758,180 +7.2% 2004__________18,978 -5.6%_________3,159,818 +14.6% 2005(Jan-Sep)___7,221 -49.1%(Jan-Sep)_ 2,631,665 +15.7% I doubt that a tiny airport like Pilansberg which is no longer even served by a single scheduled airline classifies as relevant infrastructure in this scenario. Dube is not being built to cater for JNB traffic so building another airport near Gauteng has nothing to do with the argument. The lack of capacity to the UK and Europe has nothing to do with restrictions at JNB but this is rather due to inflexible bilateral flight agreements impossed by SA (partly due to a lack of access to morning slots at Heathrow for SAA).

British- 02-28-2006

Gregpz thanks for that. I think Chris is not keeping currrent with the world. For information Sol Kerzner has NOTHING to do with Sun City or Sun international anymore he is not even a shareholder.

dysan1- 02-28-2006

Also i like how the idea of a transport hub is always refuted by chris. you say that we should send our goods via durban harbour. Have you not realised that we are in 2006, and that most industries face time sensitive issues. the advantages of Dube from that perspective are highly important for the growth of the economy. I do not know all the air rights criteria, but you obviously dont know the economic side, for your thinking on those aspects is far removed from the reality of global trade and industry. and "no major world trade route", shows exactly what i said above. South Africa is positioned centrally in the east west trade zone and is used extensively as a transshipment hub between asia and north and south america.

dysan1- 02-28-2006

This article posted by a forumer at SSC may add to our case against the inland airports "Finally, scientific reasons why Durban's KSIA will prove more popular than JIA in the long run." ------------------------ Johannesburg International Airport is regarded as a "hot and high" airport. Situated some 1680 metres above sea level, the air is thin. This has implications for the performance of aircraft at altitude. For example, a flight from Johannesburg to New York, making use of either a Boeing 747-400 or an Airbus A340-600, must stop at Lagos, Dakar or Ilha do Sal for refuelling, since the aircraft is not able to make the run on one tank of fuel. This is because of decreased performance on take-off from the airport, where an aircraft cannot take off fully laden with fuel, cargo and passengers, and must use a longer stretch of runway to reach take-off velocity. By contrast, the return leg of the flight from New York to Johannesburg is a non-stop 14-hour flight, with better performance of the aircraft in New York because the city is at sea level. The Johannesburg-New York flight is the fourth-longest commercial flight in the world, after Singapore - Newark, Singapore - Los Angeles and Newark - Hong Kong. There are two parallel runways, which run north-south, and a disused cross runway. The western runway, 03L/21R, is over 4400m in length, making it one of the world's longest international airport runways. This is due to the aforementioned rarefied atmosphere problem - fully laden aircraft require a far greater length of runway to achieve take-off velocity at this altitude than they would normally.

Chris- 02-28-2006
King Shaka -- Dube - Australasia
Hi Guys , Many thanks for everyone wading in -- all the information makes us a little wiser. I hope to see you all at Zimbali in March...ESPECIALLY "British" -------------------- http://www.tbcsa.org.za/news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1138689806&archive=&start_from=&ucat=& The Board of Airline Representatives South Africa’s (BARSA) invites you to the PREMIER ANNUAL OUTLOOK CONFERENCE 2006 at Zimbali Lodge and Country Club (Ballito, KwaZulu Natal) March 17 to 19, 2006 where we will join forces in BARcoding the Future. Key speakers – such as leadership author, Tony Frost and Peter Mackenzie-Williams from the Transport Research Laboratory in the UK – will provide some of the elements necessary to the future growth and development of the international airlines in South Africa. ============================ Niger Delta -- global cost of JET A1. Everyone is talking about the new interconnected ( trade networked ) world. Surely you then realise how these other things interconnect -- or perhaps not.? I was suggesting the other inland airports purely as an stop gap measure for PASSENGERS to JIA , who were being stopped because of a so-called shortage of slots. Sol Kerzner DID build Sun City . Lost City -- whether he has anything to do with them now or not. Greg could you also please provide the tourism figures to go with those Pilansberg ATM's I was definitely at Windsor Castle -- I definitely saw lots of passenger jets -- at about the same height jets are over Hillcrest on the way to DIA. I am well aware of JIT and the implications. I just need someone to spell it all out for me. ( Sometimes I am acting " Devils Advocate " ) I have never said that I am against a Hub per se. "British" was the one talking about point - to - point. I just believe that all the relevant issues around the complexities of such a process have not been fully spelt out or made transparent. Please could you provide more info and a ref for your description of the SA global trade routes and the Asian trans-shipment locus. As far as all the shortcomings about JIA -- why not just lenghten the runways at JIA. ? Surely ACSA in their billion rand upgrades have looked at all these factors.? How long is the runway going to be at KSIA.? There will be NO parallel runways at KSIA. Lets not compare Oranges with Lemons. OK so we are talking Red-Tape for the inablity to service the oversubscribed routes....NOT lack of infrastructure.? Is there likely to be some horse-trading taking place here.? I see SAA is now getting a fair share of fuel from BAA. If you want to know what I think then I am sure that you would have picked that up from the earlier posts. I certainly do not think that you just build airports and then magically everything else just follows. Has anyone done any research on the opportunity cost of 2.5 Billion ( apart from ACSA ) Well we ( those of us that go to Zimbali ) will soon get to ask all these questions -- whether we get real answers or not is of course another question. ( The Dube company is sponsoring part of the event ) Still we can ask about interchanges to Australasia -- on the way to where I wonder.?

British- 03-01-2006

Chris I think that I am fairly well qualified to understand the aviation business having worked in the area for the past 15 years also my thesis when studying was on international aviation strategy and area I work in for my present employer. Sol Kerzner did indeed build Sun City, I am not arguing this but I think he could care less if more or less people are going to the resort now. Chris you see when we talk about airports and aviation passengers to an airport and then somebody catagorically refutes your point you then want to know tourism numbers to the area, you just cannot accept you wrong. you said interchanges to Australasia --- on to where I wonder? well Chris take out an atlas and take you pick. You accuse others of not nowing where Africa is your ignorance makes me woder how much aviation knowledge you have. Maybeyou have spoken to a few microlight pilots or possibly been in one. Do you study routes, airlines new routes code share agreeements. You see Chris this is my job day in and day out I look at the Strategy of the Airline and advise accordingly. I asked one of my staff to get me all the info they have on the La Mercy site and the Cato ridge site and the reasons for their choices in the first place, below is a short note: In the 1960's the then South African Goverment decided that a new airport was required for Durban as expansion of the current airport was not realistic as the southerly runway was facing into a hill and meant a very steep take off angle and increasing the avitaion fuel burnt by airlines. Sites where explored, La Mercy on the North Coast and Cato Ridge between the cities of Durban and Pietermaritzburg. La Mercy was chosen because it was close enough to Durban and could serve the then expanding economy further up the north coast where the government had given manufacturing companies subsidies to open factories. Cato Ridge was seen as a possibility because it was envisioned, at the time, that a second city would evolve between Pietermaritizburg and Durban. Now lets look at the two sites in the 21st century. Granted the manufacturing further up the North coast did not take place, but there is a strong service sector economy in an areas around Umhlanga Ridge all the way to Ballito with small manufacturing also in the area. Cato Ridge, as did La Mercy, not move in the way that was envisioned in the 1960’s but it has not developed another strong economic base either, The is no strong service sector or manufacturing economy, but rather small traders selling arts and crafts in the leisure sector. The other argument you raise is that KSIA will only have not have a parallel runway, this is true in Phase one but when numbers increase the short GA runway is planned to be extended as a second runway. Chris if you ask me a question I give short unambiguous answers. Please now tell me does Durban need a new airport? And based on the information above where should it be?

Chris- 03-02-2006
KSIA -- Dube -- Cato
Hi , Sorry if I get you riled .. I have been in a sight more different aircraft than some full time pilots. My advantage is that I am " on the ground " I also have the ear of a lot of the local people involved in aviation ( and the project ) -- in other words " I know where the high ground " is , even although I do not yet command it. By the by , could you state where you did your thesis. I wil ask the library to source a copy. NO I do not look at the airline business full time -- not a very promising career based in this country -- but yes I am very interested. Pilansberg -- I was asking tourism numbers in order to ascertain the validity of a theory that was mentioned to me. I am afraid that your staff member needs to re-check the info provided. I was chatting to someone involved in the aerial mapping business ( one of the main companies in SA ) as to the reasons for the early studies of La Mercy and Cato Ridge. The information that I was provided , was that the impetus for the La Mercy site was because of the problems faced by SAA during the " bad old days " NO re-fueling or overflights over the rest of Africa. At that time the same rationale was provided as now -- SEA LEVEL -- long runway -- FULL fuel complement. Obviously even in those days the lengthening of the runway at DIA was a problem. Apparently so the story goes newer LONG RANGE aircraft came on the market which could then operate "hot and high" from JIA ( Jan Smuts ). It was apparently because of this that the La Mercy plans all suddenly came to an abrupt end ( had nothing to do with the economics of KZN North Coast ). The apartheid planners said that Cato was too "short" -- a bunch of rubbish -- probably because the apartheid apparatchiks had all already bought property at La Mercy -- have a look at the history of the beginnings and growth of BALLITO. ( Do politicians ever change their spots ) ( Again as , I have said , people are looking for the official documents relating to these old surveys). The apartheid economic planners had all kinds of weird ideas -- the industrial area to the north of Durban was called Isithebe -- still exists. The Pietermaritzburg --Cato Ridge -- Durban axis is real and has huge untapped real potential -- KZN's "Midrand" I see that people are slowly coming to see this. The Cato area was zoned heavy industrial by the apartheid planners -- it is close to an area historically demarcated for black occupation. There are NO small traders selling arts and crafts at Cato. There is a big old dirty steel alloy smelter , there is a moribund livestock abbatoir , there is a moth-balled toxic waste processing plant in the process of decommissioning. You are thinking of the popular little Tourism stop-offs at Kloof and Hillcrest ( overlooking the Valley of a Thousand Hills ). This is all old history -- you should get your staff to haul out the Tomlinson Report and the Master Plan for the Homelands Policy. Or better still ask the Durban Metro Planning Office for the free 1:10000 aerial maps -- done three years ago. Ask for the ones with the economic zoning overlay. ( and other socio-economic indicators ) So what has changed -- the wheel has come full circle. NO provision was made at Louis Botha for runway upgrades -- because of the LIMITS of the LOCATION. Exactly the same mistake planners are going to make now at La Mercy. Have you heard about the Umhlanga Pearls.? -- and other high rise buildings in the process of construction.? These will provide EXACTLY ( for La Mercy ) that high hill at Ispingo that thwarts DIA. So you see , as I said , things are NOT that simple. Ask Dysan if he can tell us , who is involved in those projects ( perhaps the same old rogues that we have come to know so well ) You also fail to take cognisance of the fact that the noise footprint makes any type of service industry such as that at La Lucia Ridge an impossibility -- the only thing that you are going to be allowed is industry and only certain types of industry. Now who wants industry in such a prime real estate area.? As for the second runway at KSIA -- only planned for 2060. The GA runway is a complete misnomer anyway. It will only be used by aircraft OVER 5.760kgs. Anyway the "GA" airlines using it will be relegated to all the much smaller out of the way feeder routes. WHERE will the ATNS infrastructure be.? Now I wonder -- if we were to do a comparison of the Boeing 747-8 and the A380 for " hot and high " performance. Quite obviously the choice is clear -- Cato Ridge........ Personally I think that we have reached the limit with airliners as we know them. Read an article in a current issue of Popular Science Magazine to see the future.

British- 03-02-2006

Chris my thesis was while I was studing at Trinity Hall

Chris- 03-02-2006
Trinity Hall
Fascinating place -- for the fortunate few.... I see that they have ( had ) a couple of my extended tribe there... http://www.trinhall.cam.ac.uk/fellows/master-and-fellows.html I would have thought that Peterhouse would have been more fitting......Read this for an understanding of a theme that runs all the way through british history. The discarding of its scientists. http://www.bath.ac.uk/ncuacs/guidew-z.htm In 1934 he graduated from the Officers’ School of Engineering at Henlow with such exceptional results that he was sent to Cambridge University as an undergraduate of Peterhouse to take the Mechanical Sciences Tripos. ================ Well I will just have to petition the College Library and the Alumni

Chris- 03-06-2006
King Shaka -- Dube -- 2010
Found this interesting conference site.... http://www.terrapinn.com/2006/aplca/Custom_6879.stm Seems BA is also wanting to get in on the act.. http://www.businessday.co.za/articles/companies.aspx?ID=BD4A161372 Interesting times.......

dysan1- 03-07-2006

FUTURE OF THE KZN ECONOMY Dr Jeff McCarthy Chairman, Mercury High Road Board profmac@mweb.co.za This article is concerned with projecting the likely future of the KZN economy, say two decades hence. In this regard we can observe that there are very few places in the world that radically change from what they once were over such a time frame, but rather they tend to evolve from – or develop out of - the existing pattern. In an open economy (which KZN very much is), the evolution is shaped largely by the extension of the region’s comparative advantages in the national and global contexts, and the reduction in scale of those existing activities in which other parts of the world are likely more successful. Sectors of the KZN economy which fall into the latter group most obviously include for example clothing and textiles manufacturing and sugar cultivation, each of which actually led economic growth here in (many) decades past. More recently there are others which have appeared on the endangered list, including rubber products, fabricated metal products, non-electrical machinery, plastic products and footwear, and no doubt there will be more to come in the future. These will simply atrophy, and some will fade away, in much the same vein as the British car industry (and other of their own ‘sunset’ industries) have over time. In all regions and countries, the failure of firms in such sectors capture short term political attention, and the newspapers will often report on associated weeping from vested interests. However, the main hypothesis of this article is that the future KZN will be shaped by largely un-sung success stories, some of which emerge from changing global relationships, but many of which are also rooted in fairly durable elements of the regional economy. Combining historical strengths and weaknesses: Internal geographical organization of the KZN economy A combination of historical durables and changing global relationships make up KZN’s relative location within the national and global economy. KwaZulu-Natal as a province virtually owes its economic existence to its positioning in global trade relationships (specifically, in the late nineteenth century, the port of Durban’s access to the Witwatersrand). But the province can no longer rely upon its nineteenth century foundations in this regard; and, until it establishes a strong air-based logistics platform, its economy could fall behind. Fortunately, it is currently doing just this, as we shall remark shortly in relation to the airport/tradeport planned for the La Mercy area. Yet, to underline the general historical point: Most people in KZN tend to take for granted that Durban today is the country’s second or third largest city, despite obvious signs of decay in some of its areas. Is this complacence? The people of the small university town of Grahamstown in the Eastern Cape may have felt equally complacent in 1850 (when it was actually the country’s second largest city). Many people of Pietermaritzburg, in the mid-to-late nineteenth century, likewise assumed that merely their political leadership of the Natal Colony would keep Durban in second place as a town to them. (Pietermaritzburg was in fact larger than Durban then, but is now one fifth its size). Things can change on the basis of access and, in an externally oriented economy like KZN’s, they actually do. At one time – only three or four decades ago – Richards Bay was seen as a sleepy fishing village in the province. But on the basis of its deep water port, and its specialization in the aluminum cluster, Richards Bay has emerged as South Africa’s fastest growing local economy during the past 15 years, with triple the rate of growth of Durban. We are not necessarily predicting the demise of Durban, but rather the extension of growth into a corridor north of it. In the future, the new dual freeway road corridor between Durban and Richards Bay, with a new international airport located adjacent, is almost certain to emerge as the economic engine room within the province. Durable Sectors – and those elements of them which will lead in the future The future of the KZN economy will be set by the leading elements of four fundamental components of the current economy. The four leading aspects of the province’s durable advantages that can be highlighted here are: 1)KZN’s has historically been the primary artery of the southern African economy, linking southern Africa through trade to the rest of the world. Its two major sea ports, Durban and Richards Bay, are southern Africa’s busiest in terms of handling cargo by value and bulk respectively. These ports have been the foundations for the respective economic leadership of their associated cities in the provincial economy. Moreover, the two KZN ports continue to stretch their leads over other southern African ports, with Durban, for example, despite its capacity constraints now handling more container cargo by value than all other southern African ports combined; and with Richards Bay being in a similar position with regard to cargo measured by mass. With the addition of the new international airport at La Mercy, KZN will remain strong in transportation and logistics; and will be the primary artery for the southern African economy for decades to come. 2)The province’s two major port cities are also its main centres of manufacturing, largely because of the locational advantages offered to industrialists by proximity to such ports. Manufacturing, in turn, dominates the province’s economy. By comparison with the national pattern, KwaZulu-Natal is a heavily industrialised, with some 30% of KZN’s GGP deriving from manufacturing compared to the national figure of 20%. Durban – the province’s major metropolis – is at the centre of that manufacturing powerhouse, but manufacturing is by no means limited to Durban. On a proportional basis, Richards Bay’s economy is even more oriented towards manufacturing (over 50% of GGP), and this town has had the fastest rate of economic growth of any major centre in South Africa in recent years (between 1996 and 2001 for various SA cities Richards Bay was placed first with GGP growth of 7,4% p.a. on average, versus 2,4% p.a. in Durban, which was closer to the national norm). Whilst the mix of manufacturing will change, the pool of industrial skills in the province, its infrastructure and locational advantages will ensure that manufacturing remains the economic centre-piece; with aluminum, motor components and motor assembly, chemicals and pharmaceuticals, furniture, paper and pulp likely to lead within it. 3) In a country noted for its vulnerability to drought (only some 15% of land is arable), KwaZulu-Natal is South Africa’s best watered province; it has a larger area of high quality agricultural land than any other province, and it is the national leader in several agricultural products. The so-called Midlands area between Pietermaritzburg and the Drakensberg is the heart of this high quality agricultural area, but there are other high quality areas including the north coast. Although in GGP terms agriculture is smaller than manufacturing, agriculture is a labour-intensive sector, which is especially relevant in a provincial context of high unemployment. Some traditional foci for agriculture – such as sugar - are now more competitively produced elsewhere in the world, but most studies show high value/ low mass floriculture and horticulture for export are likely to take the lead in the future; and certain historical strengths in relation to the domestic market such as dairy, will be retained. 4)KZN’s Drakensburg mountains, sub-tropical coastline and resorts are closest to the main national population and economic centres in Gauteng; and KZN thus remains the nation’s premier domestic tourist destination, with twice as many domestic tourists as any other province; and it also has a significant share of international tourists. Like agriculture, tourism also manifests a relatively high labour intensity, and it too is therefore of special strategic interest in the context of current development challenges. In some contexts, KZN agriculture is being combined with tourism as it has been with the winelands in the Cape, but in the KZN context the emphasis has also extended to ecotourism. Examples here are new developments between Pietermarizburg and the Drakensburg Mountains (the Midlands). In the words of a major developer (Elan) there: “(the) vision for the Midlands is to create a world class tourism and lifestyle resort, while preserving the natural beauty and environment that gives this area its sense of place……(where there are)…agri-village and working farm concepts….(and) the environmental aspects will involve the introduction of recycled water, solar heating and the eradication of alien vegetation. …”. The public sector plays a significant role in tourism promotion in the province, and will likely do so in the future. This has been recognized for example in the promotion of public investments in places like the International Convention Centre (ICC), the uShaka Marine Park project, and public regulation of the location and character of several new casino and other resorts (e.g. Suncoast, Umdloti, Zimbali, etc). Most observers anticipate that the mix of undeveloped coastline with warm waters on the north coast, combined with their proximity to “big five” game reserves and the new airport at La Mercy, will be the focus of several new planned resorts which are likely to lead the growth in this sector. Second homes and resorts, in turn, have led the growth in the provincial construction sector (also labour-intensive) which looks set to continue for a decade, in combination with national/provincial government’s infrastructure thrust (for example building new roads, airports, port extensions). In conclusion, the “engine-room in the subtropics” which is KZN is evolving, like any other regional economy; and this is largely in response to the reconfiguration of comparative advantage, in relation to its historical and geographical assets. Its key elements are transport/logistics, restructured manufacturing, and tourism/second-homes/construction. These are redefining the new KwaZulu- Natal. It may seem odd to discuss a province’s economy in isolation from the national pattern, but the truth is KZN’s economy is as large as Tunisia’s and more than half that of Nigeria; and whilst it started as the port-service district for the Witwatersrand (now Gauteng), apart from tourism and some aspects of agriculture, its future economic relationships depend more on the outside world than anywhere else. Exports by KZN firms already account for some 30% of GGP, and whilst Rand strength has hurt the pattern slightly recently, the long term prognosis is that this share is bound to grow in the future.

dysan1- 03-07-2006

i know its long, but speaks of the DIRE need for the airport

British- 03-08-2006

I think the article by Dr Jeff McCarthy is very interesting and appears to be well researched. I agree completely with his conclusions and I am surprised that people are still debateing the merits of the La Mercy airport project. I acknowledge that I do not live in the country or the area but with the reduction in international flights and the interest in SA as a tourism destination it must be noticed that KZN is not getting their fair share of tourism when compared to say those who live in Cape Town and Johannesburg. Just think of the increase in Manufacturing and toursim to boost the GDP when this airport is operational, I think KZN and Durban in particular is set on the threshold of huge growth over the next few years and decades, firstly during the construction phase and then when fully operational. Dysan a great contribution.

Chris- 03-08-2006
Dube--KSIA--Dube McCarthy
Well sorry to pop the bubble.... Much of the growth of Richards Bay is premised on CHEAP electricity -- which is NOT forthcoming, Please see the articles in the media about the problems with BHP BILLITON and ESKOM. ( Including the big smelter in Moz. ) Trade , especially air - transport is also premised on CHEAP fuel -- also not forthcoming. In fact a shrinking resource if one is to believe the Peak Oil fraternity. A resource frought with problems of supply South Africa has no meaningful crude oil resources -- SASOL depends on ELECTRICITY of which there is precious little to go around -- and for the forseeable future. I suppose all you non-flying contributors failed to notice that there was a KZN wide shortage of AVGAS. Something likely to happen more often. You guys are really stretching now. Prof McCarthy has this Richards Bay -- Northern corridor stuck in his mind somewhere. PLEASE explain what the trains that transport all the "shippable" goods to Richards Bay run on.? Those huge long trains that run past Vryheid. The fair share of Tourism is more dependent on those SA - UK bilateral airservice agreements that you tell us you are clued up on. NOT new airports. As well as the cost of the SA "Tourism Package" compared to other destinations. I discovered the UK CAA documents cache.! Have a look at the reports produced by this "think-tank" http://www.commark.org/pages/default.asp Especially the aviation reports by Anton Richman -- formally SAA. I am amazed by the way you people keep on flogging the poor dead horse.

Chris- 03-08-2006
KSIA -- Dube
" I am amazed by the way you people keep on flogging the poor dead horse. " Perhaps you should do some scratching around on PPRUNE. Only rumours -- not pie in the sky!

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